Subj: Amun Menes Thoth Iti Osiris Sior - Time Passages & God in Heaven
Correspondence between LexiLine member Gary Gilligan and Andis Kaulins (AK), LexiLine list owner, published with Gary's permission. Gary asked about my identification of Amun with the Moon, and also about Thoth and Osiris.
Here is what I replied:
"... [In my opinion] the word for Moon comes from the Indo-European e.g. Latvian MENESIS, i.e. MENesis viz. MAINesis where MEN is like Latvian MAIN "changing one" and -esis is the Latvian verb "to be" found also in Latin est. For MAINA "change" you then have the Latvian variant MAINIT "to change" whence German MONAT "month" which became English MONTH.
Thoth [erroneously "affiliated" with the Moon by Egyptologists] is not some name of the Moon per se but rather refers to the "recorder" of the changing Moon, i.e. a recorder of time passages. Thoth is depicted as the IBIS because the Indo-European e.g. Latvian word for this bird is TITILBIS i.e. dividable as TIT-ILBIS, so that THOTH in the hieroglyphs came from the first syllable TIT- and IBIS in the hieroglyphs from the second syllable -ILBIS.
As noted in the British Museum Dictionary of Ancient Egypt under the entry Thoth:
"Utterance 359 of the PYRAMID TEXTS describes how the gods gained access to the netherworld by traveling " 'on the wing ofThoth' across to the other side of the 'winding waterway' "
This waterway is of course the Milky Way, but not recognized as such by the Egyptologists because they have no clue about astronomy. That is like a physician with no knowledge of anatomy.
The use of the homophonic form Thoth in association with the Moon comes from the ancient word ITI (Sumerian) for Moon, which is Indo-European e.g. Latvian (also ancient Greek) IETI "goes" i.e. "the passage of time". ITI in Sumerian is often then depicted as sheep - and Sumerologists, also having no clue about astronomy or linguistics, think this means that those records are "counting sheep" whereas sheep are in fact being used as counting symbols for the Moon because in Indo-European, e.g. Latvian, the ITI-homophonic (similarly sounding) word AITI means "sheep".
So, in Pharaonic Egyptian, Thoth is the symbol for "counting" of time, not for the Moon per se. As you can read further under "Thoth" in that same dictionary:
"An association with the passing of time is reflected in those depictions that show him [Thoth] recording the king's names on the leaves of the persea tree."
Thoth is the RECORDER of heavenly motions, but is not the Moon, who is AMUN.
As for Osiris, OSIRIS is Latvian ZARS / ZARAS /ZARI "branches" and e.g. as in Sumerian SAR applies to the branches of "divisions" of heaven. That is why there are Egyptian legends of OSIRIS division into:
a) 42 parts (these are the Nomes of Egypt and the Temples of Sumer) [our discoveries], i.e. the division of the heavens into constellations)
b) or also 72 parts (this is the round of precession of 25920 years divided into 360 segments of 72 due to the fact that one degree of precession equals 72 years, i.e. 72 x 360 = 25920).
The affiliation of Osiris with death may come from the Egyptologists' confusion of Indo-European e.g. Latvian ZARAS (branches, divisions) with Latvian ASARAS "tears, i.e. the tears of weeping and sorrow", for sorrow in Latvian is the similar word SERAS, concepts which could all have been represented by the same homophonic (similarly sounding) hieroglyphic symbol."
Gary replied in a message as follows:
"Do you think there is a connection here with the early dynastic pharaoh MENES (Narmer 3100 BC) or the latter pharaohs of the 11th Dynasty i.e. MENtuhotep I?
Amun (the moon) was assigned a celestial sacred boat as evidenced by the festivals (Opet) and the Egyptian art work dedicated to him. Although I think I understand the nature of Osiris, the question has to be asked, if Re (the Sun) and Amun (Moon) were ascribed sacred celestial boats, then why did Osiris have a celestial boat if he too did not represent a planet traversing the skies?
"Gary, At my website you will find under MEINOS
"Meinos = Orion Mors in Taurus out of the Osiris of the"Sphaera barbarica" (Scherer, p. 233). Perhaps this is the original heavenly Menes of antiquity. According to Kunitzsch, the Arabs call the three stars of Orion (nugu) M-AN-NAZM." Quoted from Der Sternhimmel in den Dichterischen Vergleichen der Andalus-Araber, Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenlaendischen Gesellschaft, Vol. 128, no. 2, 1978.
From the standpoint of Latvian language, MENES could easily be related to the Latvian term MENESS "the Moon", but also simply through M//V Shift also to Latvian VIENS or VIENIS meaning "first" or "one". Osiris was in my opinion clearly not a planet to start out, but the term got so broadened in the course of Egyptian history that it surely became applied to various aspects of the heavens... so, depending on the time period you want, it could have been applied as a name to a star, a constellation or even a planet.
However, as you can see from my transcription of the Turin Canon at http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi104.htm
Osiris is not a very good candidate as a name for Saturn but it could have been applied to Venus.
The Pharaonic hieroglpyhs there read in my opinion ISS which is Latvian for "short"and RE viz. REDZE, Latvian for "sight" so that ISRE or OSIRIS is possible."
I then sent Gary an additional message to add to the one above.
Also to be considered for the origin of OSIRIS is the alternative Gaelic SIOR which I claim to be the origin of the older name for Newgrange which is SI AN BHRU - i.e. I think this was actually SIOR AN BHRU meaning "the eternal post or beam", i.e. a reference to the North Ecliptic Pole.
To understand this please look at my recent files (open only to group members) on Ancient Ireland at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LexiLine/file.
SIOR could well be the older form of OSIRis since the divisions of the heavens extend outward from this immovable spot. This would also give Osiris a heavenly "position".
P.S. can I post some of our discussion on this matter to the LexiLine list as one posting ?"
"You could be right, I have considered the North Ecliptic Pole. Osiris's hieroglyphs, the throne and eye could be considered as a fixed eternal post or beam, but Osiris's celestial barque still troubles me. If Osiris is connected to the 'immovable spot' why did the Egyptians gift him a boat?
No objection to LexiLine list as one posting, please correct any of my spelling mistakes (lol)."
I wrote my answer to Gary as follows:
"I can not answer this for the ancient Pharaohs. You may.
Here is some more information.
The Latvian Dainas speak of "Dievs sed Laivina, dienu nakti" which means "God sits in a boat day and night".
This god also wears a cape of stars - the stars of the heavens. We had such a "coat" by the way found in the Tomb of Tutankhamun.
If the Latvian God is like the original Osiris - i.e. the immovable "eye" in heaven - then he has a boat, according to the Latvian Dainas, I guess because he is in the midst of the ocean of the firmament.
The etymological connection is the fricative DZ- which seems to precede the Latvian DIEVS (god, Latin deus) in the form DZIEVS [DZIV- also means "life" in Latvian] but also in such related cognate terms as DZIR-KALIS "millstone cutter", i.e. Hamlet's Mill of Heaven, so that DZIR- in other forms such as DZIR-NAVAS in Latvian means "mill".
Hence, DZIR in the sense of the Almighty, transformed to SIOR "eternal" in Gaelic is the immortal immovable spot in heaven - the only such apparent spot in our visible universe - where all else appears to move, and so, I think the ancients saw this as the seat of God, at the center of heaven's mill [or the immovable eye, or God in a boat at the center of heaven]."
P.S. Let us presume here that Gary and I have correctly arrived in our discussion at the megalithic view of God as the Almighty invisible one residing at the only immovable part of heaven, the North Ecliptic Pole.
What has happened to mankind in the intervening 5000 years?
We have supplanted this simple understandable astronomical view ofGod by a host of man-made religions each of whom has informed us that they possess special "heavenly" prophets in human form who were divined to earth by extraterrestrial means (UFOs?) to advertise God's message through the mouths of other lesser humans nevertheless claiming special knowledge of God's intentions and allegedly preaching "God's" word.
The result of modern religions is the war, conflict and strife
we view daily in the news.
Is this God?
I doubt it.
I am fascinated by the megaliths and by megalithic men for their honesty as men in portraying their world as a sound human mind would portray such a world - in their era - in seeking a reason for man's being on this earth in the motions of the spheres around an [apparent] immovable center.
By comparison, man's modern religions are dishonest with the universe and with the men they are supposed to serve - not command.
At least the ancients had a location for God's abode. Moderns have no conception of where their God is - though they claim him to be in Heaven. Where?
The moderns then believe that God first came onto earth only after Man learned to read and write and then allegedly put God's word into print for all of us to read - of course, in THEIR language. And of course, each religion has their OWN book of the REAL TRUTH.
As if God did not exist prior to books, or print.
Indeed, if God exists, he existed prior to MAN - and he created ALL men. We are all a part of the universe and always will be.
THAT is true religion, for it is everlasting, and it was the - perhaps childlike, but honest - religion of the ancients, which we have lost and have replaced by dishonest adult idols which are far worse in result than any idols which the ancients revered. Just turn on your TV and you will see modern religions in action.
[Update October 19, 2006]
Osiris - so transcribed in Egyptology - also conceivably meant the physical force of "gravity" (otherwise missing in Ancient Egyptian texts) as in the Indo-European, e.g. Latvian SVARS "wieght", a concept of gravity which may be represented by the hieroglyphs of OSIRIS in certain hieroglyphic contexts pertaining, for example, to the scattering of the remains of Osiris on the earth and there then afterwards representing the primordial male force.